I just spent an hour talking to a Jehovah’s Witness, as we do occasionally, eh? Thing is, I have some very close friends who were brought up in Brethren/JW/Mormon households, and now in their late-30s/ early-40s, are only just really getting free from some of the truly damaging concepts these poor dudes get in their heads.
Jesus: stop tending your herb gardens / using scripture to control people
Humans: but we’re trying to get it right!
Jesus: that’s not what … I … look, there is only One who is good
Humans: ooh ooh, is it me?!?! IS IT ME?!?! AM I ENOUGH YET?!?!!
Jesus: … …
One couple I know (married since 24 years old) actually avoided having children until they were in their late 30s, because they didn’t want to bring anyone into the world who would invariably end up in Hell. Let’s just think about that for a second. Yeah. Fortunately, they’re free of that shit now, and have two gorgeous little babies! Yayyyyayayayayayyy!!! Good News. (Ahem, that was a Good News joke) (Niche).
Anyway, apologies if you are a Brethren/JW/Mormon/sharp-end Evangelical (or frankly any Church or Atheist group of any sort where there is a well established hierarchy of ‘value’, and the leader probably wears a big flashy watch), but I’m gonna be honest. I spent an hour talking to this JW, gently and kindly, and we went back and forth. All of their analogies were devoid of the function of Grace, or involved them actually being the Redeemer (lol) … so that was nice to shine a light on that one. Anyway it all boiled down to this: their position was to try to illustrate that I was wrong, my position was to try to illustrate that they were loved. Interesting distinction. They had *quite* the look on their face at a few points as this began to dawn on them.
They asked if they could visit me again, and I said … give it a year. They’ll probably bring their whole church next time, try to take me down with clever theological ideas and good robust arguments. Ah well, I’m at a place in life where I can happily stand amongst 50 zealots and gently speak of Love. So check back in a year and we’ll see what happens in the continuing adventures of Sindy Anna Jones in the Real World!
Oooh, now there’s a comic idea …
Ah, sorry this blog post didn’t contain any boobies, did it? Here you go:
Tits.
You’ll end up unwittingly becoming the spiritual leader of the Church of Tits & Grace 😎
LMAO!
‘unwittingly’, no it’s all part of the plan. Subscribe to my podcast for £8/month
👉👌
God I love tiddies. -tries to honka-honka the screen- Lol! 😀
So that is some very scary Halloween stuff. I wonder if any Halloween kids group dress up in suits and proper dresses put a bible and pamphlet in hand? One way to scare the neighbours.
I encountered a pair of youngster Mormon ‘missionaries’ parking their bikes outside my apartment a few years back. The 20 somethings introduced themselves as ‘elders’. I was over 50 at the time and had explored life and experience pretty well. I could not hold back the laugh at the term elder. Perhaps in spouting the dogma of their particular belief system. I let them continue on their mission and declined further encounters.
Love is a word they throw about but place heavy limitations on its expression. The same goes for consciousness, free think, sexuality, real emotion and any exploration outside of the approved box.
Sindy In The Real World would be interesting because some encounters with our fellow humans can be quite funny. But comics allow an exploration of reality PLUS whatever you can dream up. The scifi realm offers a richer canvas to create on.
And, of course, boobies.
Yes that’s interesting to give young people the term ‘elder’. Hmm the more I think about it, the more close to extremism / indoctrination I see it; swaying young minds with promises of respect etc. Tricksy stuff.
S:=3 Year old Sindy, M:=Sindy’s Mom, JW:=Female JW, JWS:=5 year old son of JW, A:= described action
Knock knock knock… M: Crap, rick in the middle of dinner. I’m filthy. SINDY GET THE DOOR! S:OK MOM! M: Crap “SEX DEVIL” too late I’ll hide., A: Sindy opens the door the woman on the other side opens her mouth but Sindy is faster. S: What is a SEX DEVIL? Can your little boy play with me? WHAT IS A SEX DEVIL? TELL ME!!!. JWS: Mom, what is a sex devil? A: Sindy slams the door while the caller takes off quickly. S: Mom they ran away. M:Gbbrlll ha hahhh ha. S: Mom are you ok? M: Yes dear. S:Mom what is a sex devil? You told aunty Jill, TELL ME!!! M:I will tell you I just need to find the right words. When you get older you will find that words can be hard to find at times. Your my best girl I love you. S:Hug me NOW!!!
the end
Questions Horny=Devil, Jill=Mom Sister, JW = never called again.
And there you go.
Well, there we go! You’re journaling your stuff, right? You must!
Did you give them any material to study? Like a URL for the required pamphlet, really. Something safe to look at later.
Speaking of influences on children, I once vomited hard and pretty much instantly when someone reminded me that it was a Friday and I was eating a hot dog. Not one conscious thought was involved.
Material – no. They tried to give me pamphlets and I declined.
Yeah it’s strange how our perception of reality as little kids can be so strongly formed. Trauma is that thing that alters what we believe of ourselves, and I’d say immediate vomit is a trauma response. Sadly, spiritual/religious abuse is a difficult one to recognise and unpick, but very worth it – and you can do it whilst also believing in / rediscovering God, so win-win!
On the same day as Halloween…? Sure this was Jehovah guys? I once claimed to be from the catholic church to collect chocolate taxes… the neighbors still finger point at me and call be “church weirdo”…
Once worked with a guy who described himself like this: “Im a member of the reformed Mormons church… meaning I no longer am a Mormon.” His stories on the crap he went through growing up in a large Mormon community sounding more like what you would hear from someone who escaped a cult. Even for a religion as filled with craziness and hypocrisy as Christianity in all its variety of interpretations, Mormons are just out there.
On the subject of “missionaries” trying to convert me, Ive only ever spoken to one I didnt want to strangle after less that a minute from the sheer arrogance of the usual “Im here to save you because Im right and youre wrong” nature of it all. He happened to be a Krishna, whos members Ive always thought a bit quirky but not all that annoying for a group known for their street preaching. I was living in Seattle and working in the University District, a rather eclectic sort of neighborhood, and was waiting to cross a street while walking to lunch when the guy offered me a pamphlet. I declined and said I wasnt a religious person, he said he was about spiritualism not religion and we ended up having a nice conversation about one versus the other. I even bought him Pho for lunch. We parted on good terms having learned something from each other, and I always made sure to greet him anytime I saw him around doing his thing after that.
Ah that’s cool about the Krishna thing – yeah definitely up for that mutual vulnerability thing, humans on the path of love are prepared to be affected by others and give that vibe of flexibility and enjoying seeing the good in you, so it’s kinda easy to spot! I’ve had both massive red-flag conversations and hugely encouraging path-of-love conversations with people from all major religions at this stage, it’s great / weird!!
You legend!
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Years ago on the odd Saturday morning I would jaw a while with a JH fellow who had his young son (maybe 10 or 12 years old) in tow. We actually had some worthwhile and surprisingly insightful conversations. I think he was a decent guy — it’s really too bad how some folks can get led astray in spite of themselves. Haven’t seen him for years and now all they do is leave a pamphlet. And why are just the right boobs being touched — biased against the left?
“I think he was a decent guy” – yep, sounds like it. Speaking reasonably and calmly with people is always good, helps us get to the root beliefs and perhaps be able to challenge/encourage each other – but it starts with seeing them/us as decent people just trying to get it right. Sounds like you’re a decent guy too; much easier to blanket-response hate ‘them’ and in the process pushing both them and ourselves down the path towards dickheadery.
My dad was brought up in the Methodist church, mum was CofE. As kids (in the 70’s), we went to Sunday School. At 6yo, I remember struggling to accept the ‘lessons’, but kept quiet. When I was 8-10yo, we read the bible at home if we didn’t go to church on Sunday, but it could just as well have been an Enid Blyton book, for all the practical life lessons it offered (you could argue, and I wouldn’t disagree, that Enid Blyton would have been more relevant). We moved house a couple of times and the church became less and less important. Both M&D still held on to some belief, but were clearly struggling to understand why. At 18, dad and I went to a Methodist church just down the road from where we then lived. [Dad looked around and then whispered to me, “I must be the second youngest person here…” To my eternal shame, I spent most of the sermon scanning the congregation to try and spot the youndest member…SMH…] But after the sermon was over, as we got up to leave, after having been shouted at and scolded by the ‘preacher’, dad turned to me and said, “we don’t have to come back here, if you don’t want.” It actually saddened me that he felt that way, even though I became an unconfirmed atheist by 17yo (praying every night for a 12″ cock, and getting nothing, may have had something to do with it…).
It sounds like your dad was discerning if he recognised issues with the church you’d both tried, and decided not to push too far in that direction. It’s probably best not to hang around too long in a church like that; like any community, if there’s a total lack of diversity (age/sexuality/gender/race/privilege), it should ring alarm bells; a well-functioning community is a diverse one because humans are flippin all over the place! Well … I know I am hehe
I think we can form ideas of what religion is like from very brief encounters and can just push it out of our lives, especially if we have secret feelings of sexuality that we know wouldn’t be welcomed in the particular hell-and-damnation preaching places we’ve been to. That’s just sensible; keeping yourself safe! It’s a bit of a sadness to avoid faith stuff absolutely though, I think we do seem to be spiritual beings, and certainly the most affective / freeing moments in my life have gone along with spiritual stuff. But like any hierarchy of needs; you need to be safe being genuinely you in a place before you can move on to any real wrangling with mysterious issues.
I’d encourage anyone to seek those places and seek the truth, in their own way, in their own time. That’s all I’m doing, and honestly it kicks ass; the seeking does seem to be the finding. And the people who think they’ve got all the answers tend to be … easily avoided.
I actually had a similar doorstep experience (in my late teens), when I decided to spend an interesting hour chatting with the couple (30’s) who knocked one Saturday morning. My approach was to ask (without owning up to my athiest leanings) how a non-believer could do ‘good’, if they did not have free will (a consequence, aparrently, of not accepting god and living with his ‘grace’), and if they had no free will, how could not believing in god be a personal choice – it must have been a choice made on their behalf, and therefore, without free will, all their actions were predetermined. So why were they trying to convert someone who had been predetermined to be a non-beliver. Was there a points system…like Green Shield stamps?
It was probalby a lot more philosophical than that, and I felt I pitied them for not being able to be more analytical (I felt I was more free than they thought themselves to be), though I was annoyed that a complete absence of any ‘evidence’ didn’t bother them at all…they had ‘faith’.
Eventually, I wished them well and they parted with a smile…through chattering teeth. It was early January and had been lightly raining on them for the last 20 mins or so…
A year later there was a knock at the door and a cluster of earnest faces (think ‘Mike Pence’, but more human and less 1970’s Westworld) outside the door. But before I could say anything I recognised the Produce Manager from the supermarket where I worked part-time. He smiled and said, “we’re wasing our time here, let’s go.” S’funny,but I don’t ever recall having a conversation about belief with him, at work. I must have had an ‘aura’ that he could read…
I think that’s a very good few questions you asked; and if they don’t think certain people have free will, then they have absolutely the crappest theological ideas I’ve ever come across! Which probably explains why they were knocking door-to-door …
And if your supermarket manager took one look at you and moved everyone on, that’s just judgement, isn’t it? Precisely what we shouldn’t be doing. So he was either protecting his own ego/reputation by minimising the exposure to a colleague, or he genuinely thought their message wasn’t for you. Another serious theological fiasco! Sounds like you saved some time there.
We all need to find those places we can genuinely and kindly wrangle with meaning, otherwise we risk removing both meaning and mystery from our lives. So I suppose any group that knocks on your door and has all the answers, or makes a snap judgement, has demonstrated a lack of both discussion as equals, and the role of mystery. Ultimately, we all need people we can talk to [as equals], with whom we can discuss those very important and very difficult questions of life, and of death; of what we are, and maybe even the absurd question of what God[/love] might be.
I had a boss who happened to be mormon.
Told me of his time on mission in Amsterdam. They stopped at an old lady’s house and she invited them back on thursday.
When he and his mate showed up Thursday, the old lady invited them in. There were two JWs sitting awaiting them.
Old lady: “Have at it.”
My boss said he and his co-brainwasher, callow 18-year olds unprepared for the debate, lost handily.
😂 classic Jedi trick. I mean she was perhaps a little manipulative in setting that up, but when I’m old and bored I’m sure I’ll look forward to similar hijinks!
It makes me wonder whether (a) the old lady was seriously interested in the debate, or (b) just a tease, looking to fill in an afternoon with some thological cabaret.
I’m now struggling with how to reference the win/lose situation here. Although the Mormons ‘lost’ the debate, they lost (to my mind) to a false argument anyway. This is an instance of where two ‘wrongs’ do not make a ‘right’.
[Also, if this was a set-up, did the old lady live-stream to other old ladies in Amsterdam, also running similar theological sparing matches?…I like to think so. 😉 ]
Sindy, you mean so much more to us than just boobies.
👍 thank you. I mean I sort of know it but it’s nice to hear eh
Agree completely with Ted! Sindy, your insights into “the human condition” have put the pegs in my psyche into their proper holes! I’m now 68 1/2, and your comics, over the last couple of years since I found them, have made me really think about my attitudes towards others! I really took a deep look at myself after reading your “Toxic/Positive Attitudes” at the end of Lithium 8, and found most of my qualities in the positive side, but realized I had some toxic to deal with. I am currently working to “de-toxify” myself according to the list, and feel like a wholly better person because of it! Thank you so much for sharing your insight that I might be able to better myself!
Another old fart, here. She really does have an amazing effect on some of us doesn’t she? Don’t what it is — presentation, artwork, plot twists, character development, or all the above — but it’s quite amazing where we can find insight and inspiration. Hope she realizes how much she helps us.
Thanks Mark 👍
Ah thanks Fred. I looked again at that list, worried what was on it – I literally just wrote it out and published the comic! Checking again … yeah it is 100% consistent with what I believe and how I try to operate, phew!
I think the mistake we can all make is to believe we are labelled as a ‘toxic’ person (for reasons of our undeniable mistakes/regrets/shames), and therefore beyond change … but I have seen that no matter what our age or experiences, it simply isn’t true. We really can move on, become free, change for the better, and make up for lost time. Which is good fcking news if you ask me!
Love is the answer but boobies don’t hurt!
Next comic title sorted 👍
An “hour’??? Talk about stamina. I wouldn’t waste a minute of my day, listening to a person’s take on God. Ick!
I have a brother in law, who’s an orthodox priest or whatever and I refuse to treat him any different than anybody else. I tell you. I think it annoys the shit out of him. Heh, heh, heh…
Yeah thanks, I think stamina is probably a choice; we have to sort of choose to see the wonder/beauty in each other and focus on that.
It’s like kindness I suppose, we can always be cynical and opt out, keep ourselves ‘safe’ that way, or we can be vulnerable, be kind, and seek a path which does change us … but sets us free. And yeah, it’s really good to treat your brother in law the same as everyone else; equally worthy of love, equally hurting and valued and brilliant and broken, as we all are. Pedestals don’t help anyone, but then nor do pits.
A three breasted woman. Two in the front and one on the back….for dancin’.
Waltz is the dance, in this case.
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pickle! Come on you need a notepad or an Evernote account or some way of getting your stuff out! WRITE DUDE, WRITE!!!
Except they won’t be back, maybe ever.
Challenges to “belief” (TM) are rarely successful, especially when left to fester. The victims inevitably scurry back to the same flock that made them, to have any critical thinking quickly washed over
Well, isn’t that crushingly depressing, Sorry..
Engagement, if you have the time, is not only more fun but ultimately more fulfilling. So I do recommend having that “chat” with your doorstepper, given the crowd here I’d imagine some good discussions…
Also TitS – and complex comic backgrounds
Carry on
I dunno, I guess we’ll see if he comes back. I was careful not to really challenge the guy (“You’re wrong!” did not pass my lips), but to try and ‘see Christ’ in him (ie ‘Christ’ the sort of throughout-time representation of all creation, and therefore precious and fcking ace) before I said a sentence; I tried to be super kind and legit encouraging, as well as gently asking questions that absolutely skewered the hot shit out of his analogies. So hopefully he’ll be back, or hopefully that one discussion was enough for him to start seeing his flock in a different way, who knows.
IF I understand the JW dogma properly, they say that ONLY 144,000 will be allowed into Heaven. Not 144,001, not 143,999, 144,000. Therefore, logically, anyone new will take someone else’s spot when they die. So if you convert, you just damned someone else to Hell. If someone else converts, you just got damned to Hell.
Ask them about that next time.
I have no desire to play musical chairs in the afterlife.
Ah yes, I had heard something about that from my friend brought up in a JW household. I cannot believe in a God who is such a total dickhead about the numbers, gotta be honest!
The 144k thing is like some hot take from some kid doing a GCSE homework and noticed some numerical way of guaranteeing their own immortality.
“So if you convert, you just damned someone else to Hell” … yeah, so if you understand love, you would sacrifice yourself so someone else could get in. I’m prepared to sacrifice myself by *checks notes* not converting to the JW vibe. Done.
You misunderstand the point of the mission. Its not to convert people, there are much easier and more effective ways to recruit and convert.
The point of the mission is to re-enforce their isolation. They go out into the world, door to door, bugging people in their homes and insisting they need to be saved, their religion or creed is wrong or immoral in some way, etc. The response is predictable. Its far more often than not a confrontational and unpleasant experience. Their message unappreciated or ridiculed. The faith repeatedly denigrated or dismissed.
At the end, they probably feel drained and hated. Then they come home to the church and are swaddled in admiration and praise for their “good work”, their faith re-affirmed and re-enforced by the camaraderie of like minded people. They are safe and appreciated again.
The point of the mission is to make these people believe the world is hostile and against them by throwing them at people when and where they are least likely to be receptive and polite about it. Its gaslighting writ large.
Ooooh, I dunno I think that may be a *touch* cynical. It’s a good perspective to ponder, and certainly I do see shadows of the extremist / indoctrinated, but to broad-stroke an entire group with that assumption would be a bit much. I have to balance concerns around extremism with the very straightforward it’s simply people-trying-to-get-it-right. People trying to make sense of life and finding some cracking how-to’s in an ancient book and reading it a bit weirdly and trying it out anyway and encouraging each other because it’s nice to be kind and friendly.
I’m sorry to hold up a mirror to your comment, but to suggest its some sort of evil pyramid scheme would be bordering on a conspiracy theory … which is perhaps the very thing you accuse ‘them’ of?
That said, the gaslighting aspect might explain some of the staying-power the slightly out-there JW perspective does seem to have.
I’m not making an accusation so much as pointing out a consequence. Certainly there are those that do this knowingly, which I think would be fairly straightforward to call evil. But others do so simply because that’s what they learned and did themselves, and now they direct others the same way. Probably never knowing what the actual consequence or purpose was. Someone could have gotten the machine started, knowing what it was, and then just watched that machine perpetuate itself via the ignorant and innocent. But more than that, its not even something that ever needed conscious awareness. It works. Its almost like natural selection in evolution. All things being equal, good people do good things, and bad people do bad things, but to get good people to do bad things, that takes Religion. I forget who said it, but it explains a lot. Meanwhile, I don’t think I implied a pyramid scheme or conspiracy as it were. I was just pointing out there is something behind that curtain that isn’t altogether savory. Unless we’re talking about Scientology, because LRH took all the worst hooks of religion/spiritualism/con artistry and industrialized it. If you’re up for crazy, wtf, and at times stomach churning reading, give Bare Faced messiah a shot.
“there are those that do this knowingly, which I think would be fairly straightforward to call evil” … yeah. If there are those who do it on purpose, I guess it comes from some sort of deep lacking, like the working out of an emotional abuse; people transmitting their childhood pain rather than transforming it. To actually work on nefarious mechanisms to exploit the innocence of others is a pretty dark path. I love that religion quote, there’s a great Denzel Washington film called Book of Eli in which Denzel plays a blind traveller, protecting the holy book and going up against religious nuts on the way … relatable lol.
I subscribe to the clever caveman theory. At some point, one of the less adept hunters devised a plan whereby he could avoid being crushed by mammoths or become a chew toy for a large carnivore. He had noticed changes in the lights in the sky and worked out that when they made certain patterns, the mammoths or other game became more plentiful. Likewise it told him when the berries and nuts were ready to be gathered. Eventually, he and others like him, parlayed those skills into a method of getting fed without all the dangerous mucking about with things that would surely eat him if given half a chance.
Thus religion was born and became a method of controlling the masses while amassing a fortune and comfort in the intervening time. It’s quite a clever scheme, simply control the access of others to the ineffable of life and make them up as you go along. Eventually you get a bunch of like minded individuals together and unify your playbook. Something like the council of Nicea. I suspect that a similar scheme is in the works for internet access. It will perhaps, even supplant the current theologies, with AOL becoming the old testament of the future.
I was going to say that there’ve certainly been very rich religious people over the years, but in the circles I currently move (which are fairly wide and … weird), I meet very few rich religious people. But on reflection … I do meet fairly rich religious people too. It’s almost as if money is irrelevant. The Council of Nicea is certainly an interesting one, and much like modern shady groups, there’s not a lot we can do to probe what’s really going on in there. What we CAN do is ask ourselves important questions about kindness and forgiveness and freedom and connection, and decide for ourselves what to do with those, and perhaps accidentally find God in the process! Who knows, eh? Not me 🙂